Mike King: The U.S. just announced a goal of tripling our existing nuclear capacity by 2050. To meet that demand, we’re in pre-application discussions with more than 15 different vendors with a whole wide range of technologies. The small modular reactors, we’re having discussions with vendors that are interested in that. We have something called micro-reactors as well. It’s a wide range of designs. We anticipate a review of over 25 applications in the next five years, with some of them hoping to have commercial deployment before 2030.
Jeff Johnston: That was Mike King, special assistant for the ADVANCE Act at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, about the NRC’s pipeline of new technologies designed to support the growing demand for electricity.
Hi, I’m Jeff Johnston, and welcome to the All Day Digital podcast where we talk to industry executives and thought leaders to get their perspective on a wide range of factors shaping the digital infrastructure market. This podcast is brought to you by CoBank’s Knowledge Exchange group.
Generative AI is having a profound impact on the country’s energy complex with demand at levels that were unthinkable three years ago. In response to this demand signal, the data center industry is pouring billions of dollars of capital into restarting old nuclear facilities and developing new technologies. Nuclear is an attractive source of energy because it’s clean and seen as a critical long-term solution to our energy needs.
As the governing agency over nuclear energy, the NRC has a birds-eye view into the market and what the future of nuclear energy might look like.
So, without any further ado, pitter patter, let’s hear what Mike has to say.
Mike, welcome to the podcast. It’s a pleasure to have you on today. How are you doing?
King: Very good, Jeff. Thanks a lot for the invitation. Happy to be here.
Johnston: Great. I’m thrilled that you’re here. Thank you for being on, truly. You sit, I think, in a pretty unique seat, and our listeners, I think, are going to learn a lot about what’s happening in the energy market, specifically as it relates to nuclear. That seems to be so topical. But Mike, maybe before we get into some of the specifics, perhaps you can just give listeners a high-level overview of where you sit in NRC, and, what is NRC?
King: Oh, of course. We do a lot of public outreach, so I can totally understand your listeners probably being a little unfamiliar with what we’re about. The NRC stands for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and we’re an independent regulatory agency. We’re a midsize agency. We’ve got about 2,800 staff total. We’re headed by a five-person commission of political appointees, which are nominated by the president.
No more than three can be of any political party, and each of them are confirmed by the Senate. High level, what we do, which will be helpful in understanding what my current position is, is we’re tasked with licensing and regulating the civilian use of nuclear technology so that we can benefit from it safely. We’re not responsible for the nuclear weapons side of things or military side of nuclear, just the civilian uses.
For example, nuclear power plants across the U.S., research and test reactors, which are at universities and institutions, fuel fabrication facilities who create the fuel, and other civilian uses of radioactive isotopes for medical, industrial, and academic purposes. We’ve been around since – on January 16th of this year, we’ll be celebrating our 50th birthday with the passage of the Energy Reorganization Act of 1974. That’s a little bit of what the NRC does. In my role, I’ve been with the agency now for coming up on 20 years, and I started my NRC career in our Atlanta office.
Currently, my role is I report to our CEO of our agency, our executive director, as a special advisor responsible for implementing changes at the NRC that were directed by Congress about six months ago in the form of the ADVANCE Act.
Johnston: Look, Mike, that’s fantastic. Great background. As I said before, I think you sit in a really unique spot, and really excited to hear your thoughts on what’s happening in the market. By the way, you’re close to data center alley in Northern Virginia. which is where I really wanted to spend the bulk of our time just trying to marry what’s happening in the nuclear energy markets and technology and marry that with generative AI and all the things we’re reading about in the press about what the hyperscalers are doing.
Maybe you can just give us a high-level overview, Mike, of what is the current state of nuclear in the United States?
King: Within the U.S., our current mix of nuclear energy production for electricity in the U.S. is about a little less than 20%. That comes from – across the US, we’ve got 54 different commercial operating nuclear power plants. Some of those have more than one nuclear reactor. If you add it all up, we’ve got 94 operating reactors across 28 of the 50 states in the U.S.
One of the jobs I had recently was involved with finishing construction of the most recently constructed design, which was the first of the Gen III+ reactors constructed in the U.S. in over 30 years. It’s Vogtle units 3 and 4 just outside of Augusta, Georgia. That was a significant milestone for nuclear power in the United States, the first one to be built in a very long time. It is a very interesting time in nuclear power in the United States. We’ve reached sort of an inflection point.
If you add up all the total U.S. generating capacity, we’re about 97 gigawatts of capacity across all of those 94 operating. About 1000 gigawatts, roughly per each of the existing large light-water reactors.
That’s the current state of operation and the existing fleet, all of those 94 operating reactors in the US, they’re all what we call large light-water reactors. They’re cooled with water, not some other exotic materials. I’ll talk with you a little bit later about what’s new in terms of the new designs that are coming down the road compared to the existing fleet.
Johnston: I guess I’m surprised to hear that nuclear represents that much of the country’s energy complex, because I was reading after Microsoft made the Three Mile Island announcement, and everyone was like, “Oh, my goodness, I can’t believe they’re reopening Three Mile Island. That’s crazy.” Why was there that reaction in your mind, given the fact that we do generate so much energy from nuclear already?
King: I think what’s unique, and actually, it started with the announcement that we were going to potentially restart the Palisades nuclear power plant, which had begun decommissioning, because in the history of nuclear power in the United States, traditionally, what’s happened is if any of these nuclear power plants decided they were going to shut down and decommission, that’s been a decision, and they’ve never come back to us to ask to restart.
The announcement that Microsoft was going to pursue Three Mile Island and rename it the Crane Energy Center was notable in that, they signed a 20-year power purchase agreement for the entire output of that large light-water reactor, which is the first time that’s ever occurred. For multiple reasons, that was notable.
Johnston: We hear a lot, Mike, about nuclear energy from the hyperscalers because I think it meets their ESG objectives. I guess if you look into your crystal ball, how do you see nuclear as a percent of the country’s energy complex growing over the next, 10, 20 years? I guess that would be one question, and then maybe as a follow-on to that, we read a lot about SMRs, these small modular reactors. I’d love to get your thoughts on how does that play a role in all of this and what are some of the timing aspects of that?
King: At the highest levels, and I mentioned the term inflection point for nuclear, all signs indicate that not only in the U.S. but internationally, there’s a forecast sustained growth of the next 10 to 20 years and even beyond. In fact, recent forecasts in increasing demand due to AI, increase in interest for carbon-free sources of energy, and of course, the more that we can have reliable sources of carbon-free energy, then that increases our energy security as a nation.
When we initially licensed these 94 operating nuclear power plants, they’re given a 40-year license. Some of those are well beyond that period. How does that happen? That happens because when they come to us near the end of their initial 40-year license, they can request for a license extension.
Most of those nuclear power plants today have been granted a 20-year renewal to that license and in fact, most recently, we’ve had some come in for a subsequent renewal to those.
The U.S. just announced a goal of tripling our existing nuclear capacity by 2050. If we have about 100 gigawatts of existing nuclear in the U.S., adding an additional 200 gigawatts by 2050, that’s quite an aggressive goal. If you were to fill that capacity just with large light-water reactors that are 1,000 megawatts or one gigawatt, you need about 200 more than we have. We’ve got 94 today.
To meet that demand, we’re in pre-application discussions with more than 15 different vendors with a whole wide range of technologies. The small modular reactors that you mentioned, we’re having discussions with vendors that are interested in that. We have something called micro-reactors as well. It’s a wide range of designs. We anticipate a review of over 25 applications in the next five years, with some of them hoping to have commercial deployment before 2030.
We’re also looking at preparing for potential commercial fusion technologies on the horizon.
Johnston: That’s super exciting. I just want to make sure I understood something here, Mike. When you said 2030, is that taking existing nuclear technology and just building more of that by 2030? Or is that SMRs or other new types of nuclear technology that could be in production or being generating energy commercially by 2030? I just wasn’t clear on that.
King: It’s a mix. Say, for example, the Palisades restart, their goal for them is – I think their existing timeline has them coming back online by the end of 2025. There are some other new designs that are not light-water reactors that their goal is to be online before 2030. They’re not the large light-water reactor design. They’re small modular reactors or the microreactors.
To maybe help your listeners understand, the microreactors are very small. There are less than one-tenth the size power output-wise of the existing 000-megawatt reactors that are considered large light-water reactors today. They’re 20 megawatts or less. Small modular reactors, only between 20 and 300 megawatts of electric. Not only is it unique in terms of the size of the power output, but the way in which it’s deployed.
For example, the microreactor designs, some of those are intended to be things that you can ship in the back of a semi-truck and set up very quickly. They’re mobile designs, which is a complete paradigm shift to what we see today where there’s a huge construction project and that reactor would never move. There’s a lot of things that we have to work through to make sure we’re ready to be able to handle some big, important questions like security and how do we license these new designs.
Johnston: Great. Super helpful. Maybe we can just noodle on that a little bit more, the path to how we get to some of these deployments by 2030. I could be way off on this, but some of the things I’ve heard and read is, like there is with a lot of new technologies, I guess there’s a good bit of uncertainty around cost and who’s going to bear those costs to develop the technology and then how much is it going to cost to buy the energy?
It seems like there’s a lot of this uncertainty that could be slowing down the process or slowing down the investment. I’d love to get your thoughts on that. Then any other challenges you see on the horizon or things that we need to be looking out for as we try and move towards more nuclear deployment?
King: It’s a good, it’s a good question and we’re attuned to what’s going on. We closely monitor what’s the likely scenarios for the future in terms of the need for NRC, what technical areas that we may need to be ready to receive in terms of reviews and other things. With the passage of the ADVANCE Act, there is a recognition of the need for us to be ready to ensure that we’re able to review a wide range of new designs and do so in a way that reflects the level of safety significance of the new design, and we apply the appropriate level of effort to do that.
With these new designs, one of the biggest challenges that we’re seeing, if the forecasted growth occurs, there’s going to be a major challenge in terms of recruiting and retaining the skilled workforce that we need. We’re competing, and we’re already seeing this today, with the very same talent that our licensees and these startup companies are competing for. We’ve lost a number of staff to go to these companies, but we are also trying our best to recruit them back and we’ve had some come back as well. If that growth and the forecasted growth continues, that will only become an increased challenge.
Also one of the biggest challenges is, as I mentioned, the existing technologies and our regulations are largely built around the large light-water reactor legacy fleet. With all these new technologies that are coming our way, advanced light-water reactors, non-water-cooled advanced reactors, small modular microreactors, fusion machines, this expansion beyond the legacy technology necessitates changes to our staffing, our processes to ensure we can effectively and efficiently perform our mission.
The new technologies that are coming our way are increasing the demand for talent in some unique areas with specific job skills. Not only is the sheer number of talented staff needed, but it’s in unique areas. We’re doing early outreach to universities, to try to recruit the right skillsets that we’re forecasting we’re going to need. The ADVANCE Act, which was recently passed by Congress, did give the Nuclear Regulatory Commission some new pay authorities so that we can better recruit talent in critical areas that we need to be able to do what we need to do so we can better compete with some of these commercial entities that can offer more.
Then finally I’ll mention, for so long in the U.S., we hadn’t built reactors. It’s a huge construction project. There’s a need to have national infrastructure, the ability to procure safety-related supply chain, and to have appropriate vendors able to meet that need.
We’re looking at ways that we can do what we call Nth-of-a-kind reviews, where once we’ve approved a design and it’s been built, what can we do to accelerate our reviews since we’ve already looked at it and we know it’s a safe design?
Johnston: There is a lot at stake here for you guys and for the country, as you mentioned. You hear a lot about critical materials or critical minerals and our reliance on China for lithium processing and so forth. Are there critical materials in nuclear technology we’re relying on other countries?
King: I would say probably the most critical aspect within the U.S. for the potential growth in nuclear, and I think what’s going on in Ukraine really helped reinforce this, is the need for us to have a secure source of uranium to support fuel production and existing capacity for enrichment and fuel production. Associated with the ADVANCE Act and other activities Congress has done is helping the U.S. secure our sources of uranium and our ability to produce fuel to meet the needs of the existing legacy fleet, large light-water reactors, but the anticipated new designs, which has improved accident tolerant fuel designs that are in the works, some higher enrichment fuel designs that support these new advanced reactor designs. That’s probably the biggest area. As a nation, we’ve already taken action to increase our ability to secure that.
Johnston: That’s great to hear, You’ve been around a while, you’ve seen a lot transpire over your time at NRC. I’d be curious just to get your perspective and your opinion on, with AI again, really the matchstick that lit this whole powder keg, it seems like. Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, and Google are largely responsible for all of the investments that are going on in this space right now, at least domestically. How have those investments or how have those companies and the sense of urgency that they bring, how has that impacted development of nuclear technologies?
King: I think it’s just added to the existing forecast in energy demand growth and really increased the sense of urgency. You’ve seen that in the tech companies that have signaled and made some significant near-term investments. Each one of these huge mega data centers, some of the larger ones consume enough electricity that’s on the order of tens to hundreds of thousands of homes for these large mega data centers.
For us to be able to get the energy needs to support them, that’s a significant unanticipated increase in energy demand. Microsoft announced partnering with Constellation to reopen Three Mile Island, Google purchasing small modular reactors being developed for Kairos Power for their growing AI needs, Amazon Web Services agreements with X Energy, Energy Northwest, and Dominion to develop nuclear projects to help them meet their climate goals, and them acquiring the data center that’s adjacent to the Susquehanna nuclear power plant run by Talen Energy in Pennsylvania.
All of those are real investments that are sparked by what’s been driven by the AI boom. It’s just adding on to previous efforts to address our desire for carbon-free sources of power.
Johnston: Good stuff. It’s certainly exciting times. We’ve covered a lot here, Mike. This has been fantastic. I, again, really appreciate you coming on the podcast today, but before we say goodbye, are there any closing thoughts you have, any points you think are worth mentioning that I didn’t bring up?
King: No, I guess I’d just say, as our lead at the agency for the ADVANCE Act, if we’re doing our job right, most of the American public doesn’t know about the NRC. There is a keen appreciation for the important role that we play. We realize that, to me, these important energy demands in the U.S., we play a very important role in that. The public needs to have confidence that they’ve got a credible regulator ensuring that all of these new designs and these new capacity of electricity for nuclear is being developed safely. But we’re also very focused on making sure that we run like a very smart organization and that we don’t waste taxpayer dollars.
There is a lot of energy and excitement within the agency to make sure we are ready to review these designs and to do our jobs in a smart way where we’re focused on safety. It’s a very exciting time to be at the agency and we’re going to be ready no matter what the anticipated future happens with nuclear in the U.S.
Johnston: Well said and good luck because we’re counting on you guys. You play an important role. Hey, again, thanks so much, Mike. It was great chatting with you today.
King: Yes, likewise. Thanks, Jeff.
Johnston: A special thanks goes out to Mike for being on the podcast today. I think it’s pretty clear that nuclear energy will play a growing and very critical role in our country’s future energy supply. And we need this happen given the explosive growth in energy demand from AI data centers and the associated geopolitical and economic factors at risk. And after talking to Mike, I think the NRC gets it and is ready to support the industry in commercializing these new technologies.
Hey thanks for joining me today, and a special thanks to my CoBank associates Christina Pope and Tyler Herron because without them there wouldn’t be an All Day Digital podcast. Watch out for our next episode.
